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Post by headINcortex on Jan 28, 2003 23:21:43 GMT -5
comments?
i thought it was strange (for lack of a better word...how about mentionable?) that although democrats, for the most part, are supporting the war, ted kennedy, a democratic 'icon', wants to send the issue to congress. does he think that his party, already openly pro-war, will vote against the war? (that sentence had so many commas.) i hope not, because although he is an icon (mostly for being so damn old), he won't influence many people. all he's doing is trying to slow down the inevitable and pissing off his own party. this is the sh*t that doesn't need to happen. we need action and descions, stop making us wait, you know? war is going to happen, just announce it.
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Post by Kingofcretins on Jan 29, 2003 12:20:27 GMT -5
Just wondering if people in the US knew that to everyone else in the world Bush is a total joke? Maybe that's what loads of people feel in the states too, I'm not sure, I hear he's quite popular : David W
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Post by soniktruth on Jan 29, 2003 14:41:52 GMT -5
BUSH IS A PUPPET PRESIDENT. HE'S BASICALLY ORDERED WHAT TO DO. NOT BY "WE THE PEOPLE" BUT BY THE POWER ELITE. BUSH IS NOT MY PRESIDENT. HE WAS INJUSTLY APPOINTED PREZ. "SO I DON'T CARE WHAT HE SEZ, HE'S NOT MY PREZ"(alittle rap for you guys) anyways yes, a majority of us think he's a joke as well.
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Post by headINcortex on Jan 29, 2003 22:29:27 GMT -5
totally agree...dick chaney is his father and colin powell his close uncle.
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splitend
Junior Member
I was born a unicorn.
Posts: 78
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Post by splitend on Jan 30, 2003 3:29:31 GMT -5
I don't know, during his address, I thought he spat out a lot of "facts" but didn't offer many solutions. I wasn't too satisfied with the whole speech.
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Post by MercurySolo on Jan 30, 2003 13:27:47 GMT -5
I'll keep my Bush bashing to a minimum (this post would be like a book, and most of it wouldn't be personal attacks), but I really dislike the fact that, in this time of uncertainty, we have a war-monger with an itchy trigger finger and a personal vendetta against Iraq (oil involved, when Iraq nationalized their oil, the Bush family lost pantloads of money) in the oval office. It doesn't even matter to me that he's an extreme Right-Winger (I tend to be a moderate leftist), I just wish we had someone more... even-keeled in office.
Over the past few months, Bush has been stating many accusations about Iraq and their Weapons of Mass Destruction, but he has one MAJOR flaw in his plan to go to war with Iraq... he has little-to-no proof of what's going on in that country. I mean, Saddam is no Little Boy Faultenroy himself (though that'd make for a funny pic), but in recent US military actions, it seems that we take out a lot of civilians in the process of policing the world, and I can't stand for that.
Iraq, if the war happens, will not be a traditional war, it's going to be street-fighting. Lots of room for error there. So innocent Iraqis will most likely be killed. Al Qaeda has threatened the US in the past year that if there is military action in Iraq, then they will do more terrorist attacks on the US and their allies. So, not only are innocent Americans going to die, but any of our allies are at risk (as the recent discovery of the men with Ricin in the UK proves).
Plus, I'm more than a little perturbed that Bush is willing to go renegade by insisting that A.) War is inevitable and B.) That the US will go it alone if that's what it takes. Because of this attitude, if he makes good on his promise, there could be a War Crimes trial in our future. According to the Nuremburg Treaty (at the end of WWII), it was put into international law that any country that fights a pre-emptive war is in violation of the treaty, especially when innocents are put at risk... also, in the US Constitution, in Article 2 (I think, might be 1), it says that "Any president, vice president or other official may be impeached for high crimes or treasons." As soon as the first bullet is fired in Iraq, Congress could impeach Bush, if they so wished... all it would take is one House member to draft the articles, and if it was put elequently enough, they would seriously consider impeaching him. By previous actions, though, Bush has proven to think that International Law pertains to every country except for the US, so make of that what you will.
ended up being a book anyway, I guess
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Post by damnitall on Jan 30, 2003 19:32:38 GMT -5
Did you guys even watch the damn thing, Because it sounds like you don't even care about the main issue. IRAG HAS ENOUGH FIRE POWER TO KILL MILLIONS OF INOCCENT BEINGS. Human life is something that is very precious to me and the ones I love. I would give my life to know that the ones I love are not in any initial danger. Like a father protective over his family. Anything that is threatening to the world and those who inhabit it should be taken care of and the threat of Saddam is some thing that should be taken care of. From the past Iraq has shown his unwillingness to work with the US and the United Nations. He supports terrorist and their actions. Bush is not a War mongering fool. He is protecting the nation from possible death and distrutions. Why are so many people against the government that keeps us free. Free to walk down the street and not have to worry about if you family is safe from its own government. In Iraq people are tortured and killed by its own government, just to keep there secrets and lies hidden. After 9-11 you would think that people would come together and trust those who they elect into the presidential seat. I say FOOLS you are if you think that the US will sit back and watch nuclear, checmicals, and germ warfare happen. Saddam has broken the agreement that they had with the UN. The US has always sent supplies and relief to those caught in the middle of the war. Have some faith and realize, bush is not trying to become a history icon. War is here and opposing it will cause much unneeded grief and distrust from within its own boundries. If you say this because of a possible draft, then run to Canda and become a disgrace and a mooch of this countries FREEDOM!!!!!!
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Post by headINcortex on Jan 30, 2003 22:23:49 GMT -5
whoa there, mr. lincoln. check your pants.
are you one of those people that are so loyal to the country that you wouldn't dare question anything that goes on? look at this from a different perspective. there are facts, many of them that merc stated, that show how these descions made by washington may be just a bit rash, many facts that lead one to suspect that maybe we just don't know enough to start a war. living in the south has definetley influenced my outlook on patriotism, so i can see your point of view, but its hard to support you when you seem so sure that what you think is right. don't be such an extreme radical. try to see other people's point of view about this. think about something that contradicts your patriotic beliefs, however hard that may be. from the few posts that you've written, it seems like you're quick to say what you think about things, even when maybe you don't know everything about what you're talking about (like bush?). everybody everywhere should be able to debate all issues from all point of views, especially this one. this is a time to be open-minded. by the way, i respect your willingness to defend your country...takes guts.
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Post by soniktruth on Jan 31, 2003 15:42:17 GMT -5
not supporting your president does not mean lack of patriotism. i love my country and i love my freedom. the word is FREEDOM. free to think for myself. free to not agree with the powers that be. but now you're calling us non-patriots because we do not agree with our government? then you're denying our freedom. anyways. look at the big picture. were there any troops sent to korea when N.KOREA publicly threatened us? of course not that'll open pandora's box. but iraq, so easy to go into war. it's all over black gold my friend. and that's not a reason to go into war. weapons of mass destruction? china, n.korea, iran, and many other countries have these destructive weapons, why aren't we phucking with them.....
SOON TO A GLOBE NEAR YOU
"DESERT STORM 2"
produced by the OIL INDUSTRY
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Post by Kurtz on Feb 1, 2003 9:18:57 GMT -5
It is obvious to see that bush an oil junkie.The problem with Iraq had always been their but it is 9-11 that awkened it from it's slumbers.if you remeber the excuse for the U.S to start sniffing around Iraq was that the Al-Quaeda had training camps there,but id don;t think there is.Although Bush is an oil feind i still think there's a legitamte reason to attack Iraq.Cause everybody knows they have weapons of mass destruction after the atrocities Saddam done to his own people.Iraq is hiding them like a child holding spmething behind is back and not willing to show it.I mean i'm sure they have something back there if they don't give the inspectors full acsess to their "soap factories.but this is not legitamte enough to start a war cause the maximum the Iraquis can do is launch chemical and biological Scuds at Israel. and that wont hurt us cause we have gasmasks and were armed real well.Trust i'm a freind of the son of a weapons engineer who took a major part at the creating of the currently best anti-missle weapon technology called "The Arrow".so there's actul;y no excuse to attack Iraq.
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 1, 2003 22:14:58 GMT -5
Before war, Bush needs a little thing we call PROOF. Bush never has any concrete proof or evidence, he just shoots from his hip in his speeches... he does a lot of accusing, but it's all worthless unless he can back it up. He's very good at igniting the emotional angle, but it's facts that make the world go round.
I'm a true patriot. People who love their country will question their leaders when they think the leader isn't fit to run the country. If there were no whistleblowers in this world, then America would be little more than Oceania in Orwell's 1984.
I don't trust Bush, that's why I didn't vote for him. Actually, if you remember, no one elected Bush, he was appointed by the Supreme Court, I'd be just as equally shaken if Gore was appointed. Bush's pattern for war is not too dissimilar from Hitler's pre-emptive strikes that stoked WWII... that's what scares me.
Bottom line: NO ONE, NOT EVEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, HAS THE RIGHT TO SACRIFICE THE LIVES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE (ALLIES OF AMERICA, AMERICANS, AND INNOCENT IRAQI CIVILIANS) FOR DEAD DINOSAUR RESIDUE.
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 1, 2003 22:28:27 GMT -5
btw... to show you Bush's priorities: Bush Budget Sees Deficit, Military Boost By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - President Bush will send Congress a $2.2 trillion budget for 2004 that projects record federal deficits and proposes a long-range plan to push military spending beyond $500 billion, officials say. Bush's fiscal blueprint will estimate this year's deficit at $307 billion, with the 2004 shortfall dipping only to $304 billion, said congressional and administration officials speaking on condition of anonymity. Until now, the historic high was $290 billion in 1992, when Bush's father was president. After four straight annual surpluses under President Clinton, the revived red ink is already adding friction to this year's budget battle. Democrats blame Bush-backed tax cuts and say war with Iraq and other problems could drive actual shortfalls even higher; White House officials and congressional Republicans play down the numbers and say the weak economy and fight against terror must be confronted first. "They're underestimating the seriousness of it," said Sen. Kent Conrad of North Dakota, senior Democrat on the Senate Budget Committee. Conrad argued that deficits will be mounting just as the government should be shoring up Social Security and Medicare for the retirement of baby boomers beginning in a few years. Without revealing the precise numbers before, administration officials have said for weeks that deficits of this size are manageable because the U.S. economy will surpass $10.5 trillion this year. "The way to get rid of deficits is to grow the economy and reduce spending, and that's what we intend to do," said Trent Duffy, spokesman for the White House budget office. According to administration figures, the projected shortfalls would equal 2.8 percent of the economy this year and 2.7 percent in 2004. When deficits peaked in the 1980s and 1990s, they were as much as 6 percent the size of the economy. On Wednesday, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected deficits of $199 billion this year and $145 billion in 2004 — excluding any new tax or spending initiatives that might be enacted into law. Meanwhile, Bush will propose a 4.4 percent increase, or $16.9 billion, in overall defense spending next year to $399.1 billion, even without any war with Iraq, according to figures obtained by The Associated Press. The Defense Department would get $379.9 of that amount, compared with $364.6 billion in this year's budget. The rest of the money is for the Energy Department nuclear weapons program and defense programs in other agencies. The proposal would increase money for missile defense and pay for seven new ships, compared with five this year. The higher costs also include pay increases ranging from 2 percent to 6.25 percent for military personnel. Increases include: _The military pay raises, which would cost an additional $3.7 billion. _Inflation in areas other than pay, which would cost $4.3 billion. _Spending for shipbuilding would increase by $2.7 billion, to $12.2 billion. _Missile defense would increase by $1.5 billion to $9.1 billion. _Spending for special operations forces would increase to $4.5 billion, from $3 billion. The Pentagon says it would save $7.1 billion through a variety of programs to include early retirement of aircraft and ships, reducing Navy personnel and ending upgrades of some weapons systems. Bush's budget will also propose more money for the Treasury Department to help the government sever terrorists from their sources of financing and to combat money laundering. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, which plays a key role in trying to nab terrorist financiers and money launderers, would receive $57.6 million in fiscal year 2004, a 14 percent increase from a requested $50.5 million for the 2003 budget year, which began Oct. 1. Bush, who will also renew his proposal to open mineral drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, will project $2.4 billion in oil lease sales there by 2005, said Rebecca Watson, assistant interior secretary for land and minerals management. She said half the money would be spent to research solar, wind and other alternative energy. ------ There's homeless starving people in this country, high unemployment, the public school system is in shambles and college tuition skyrockets, yet Baby Bush is gonna run the country another $307 billion, with a long range planned $500 billion deficit for military. Another worthy point: not counting Sec. of State Powell, the Bush administration has not served a day in military service. Bush even dodged the Viet Nam draft (rich daddy = more college time ).
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Post by headINcortex on Feb 3, 2003 22:42:51 GMT -5
HE'S A FUCKING WAR & OIL HEAD!!
that is just fucking crazy. the man needs to get his damn head straight, along with his priorities.
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 4, 2003 14:38:08 GMT -5
Yeah, did you see Bush's peeps carry the budget into congress? Those books made War and Peace look like a pamphlet. I wonder how many words he misspelled...
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Post by damnitall on Feb 7, 2003 18:44:22 GMT -5
Ok every one is agianst this action agianist Iraq, What would you guys do to if you were president? I am sure being president is not a walk in the park, look at Clinton, he had so much stress he had to get head from a fat intern(just joking don't freak out). What actions would you take and handle this matter. I don't think it is the oil, is the matter here it is the weapons, both biological and Warheads, and etc... the hiding and untruthful testimonies of scienceist coached(or threatened) by their government. The war mongering fool is Saddamm, he wants it and is not heeding the warnings the US is given to him. I am just afriad of war just as much as some of you others. But, I am more afraid of what would happen if we don't stand up and defend what fore fathers worked so hard for.
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 7, 2003 21:31:24 GMT -5
I'm not meaning to be confrontational in my posts, I pride myself on being open-minded, and if I have come off as so, I apologize.
If I were President, I'd be sure to let the UN finish their inspections and come to their conclusion, and I would do everything in my power to make sure that all of our allies were in the same frame of mind as us before we were to go to war, as a Pre-emptive strike war is going to set a dangerous precedent, so it'd be nice to have NATO all on the same page to get this done.
Also, I'd go by Benjamin Franklin's quote when deciding actions to keep our homeland safe. "Those who would give up essential liberties for a little security deserve neither security nor freedom." I would make sure that everything I did went by the constitution seamlesly. then, I wouldn't run for a second term, as by the end of the first, any hair I'd have left over would be gray, and I'd have had as much experience that 50 average people would have in their lifetimes.
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Post by damnitall on Feb 8, 2003 21:18:27 GMT -5
I agree, Maybe Bush might be a little hasty on the Starting of war. It is already started and all of those site's that are Anti-War. Need to face it, War is upon us and we are unabe to stop until US provisions are met. I think that bush is afraid of a first strike either by terrorists or by Iraq themselves. And he is maybe finding the route to prevent that from happening. President would be a bitch of a job if you ask me. I think that dealing with other cournties, Internal problems, and interns could get stressful. By the Way, That is a good quote. I like it
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Post by Kurtz on Feb 9, 2003 10:19:48 GMT -5
Bush isn't trying to prevent any terrorist attack.right now he's just giving terrorist group more reason to attack the U.S.He's just adding more wood to the burning fire of hatred.
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 9, 2003 19:42:58 GMT -5
Exactly, Kurtz, and that's why I don't like Bush... he's trying to fight his way out of a nest of hornets, and every idiotic mistake he makes reflects on me, because I"m an American... some member of Congress should get the guts to impeach him, there's more than enough evidence for that to get pushed, or there will be the moment an American bullet kills an innocent Iraqi citizen (God forbid).
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Post by damnitall on Feb 11, 2003 1:25:30 GMT -5
I think that they will attack if action is taken or not. They hate americans so bad they will take their own lives to destory many others and the reason why I don't know. Maybe someday we will know. I thank you all, I have learned much from all views that many of you have. I get a little jumpy at times when I get typing so take no offense if I have said something to anyone of you.
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Post by Kingofcretins on Feb 11, 2003 4:40:40 GMT -5
Could the reason why they hate Americans be because they ( and of course us Brits too) have bombed their countries repeatedly without much thought for loss of human life and with the incredibly stupid and arrogant thought that we can get away with it without any repurcussions. Sure bombing Iraq wouldn't make any people who are intent on fighting america or the west now think twice but if we don't subject the kids in the middle east and similar places to what we have done to their parents etc there will eventually be a decrease in this hatred. Another problem is of course the number of extremist regimes around there but the reason that extremist regimes get in power is when a country is seriously fucked up and people need some radical solution to their problems or are scapegoat or common enemy (ie America/the west). If we actually gave more aid to countries or helped them somehow then again the hatred would subside I'd imagine.
David W
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 11, 2003 14:19:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that the only way conflict can be resolved is through diplomacy (or nuking the sh1t out of everyone until the world is rubble). If common people of the world were put together in a room, without influence from Presidents, Prime Ministers, or any other governmental body, they'd find that they have more in common than not. It's not the people that are inherintly bad, it's the people in power. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I say we get rid of Bush, Blair, Saddam, and every other leader and have the citizens of the world figure this one out... you know, the people who are going to die when bombs come flying through our rooves, anthrax is unleashed in our towns, and planes come crashing through our workplaces. Okay... maybe I'm a little more leftist than I thought, heh
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Post by headINcortex on Feb 12, 2003 0:06:42 GMT -5
i was going to say the same thing, basically. we have no control over what saddam and the rest make they're countries belive, which is 'hate america, they're a-holes'. but the bombing and shnazz isn't helping much. neither is bush.
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Post by headINcortex on Feb 12, 2003 0:07:54 GMT -5
oops... their countries
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Post by soniktruth on Feb 12, 2003 14:11:12 GMT -5
notice the gas prices going up? i wonder why??(sarcasm)
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Post by Kurtz on Feb 13, 2003 11:21:47 GMT -5
why is Iraq sanctioned anyway?..
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 13, 2003 12:41:17 GMT -5
Because Saddam nationalized Iraq's oil reserve, putting the Bush family out of a lot of money... it's all personalized.
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Post by soniktruth on Feb 13, 2003 23:16:42 GMT -5
ALTERNATIVE ENERGY, HERE WE COME
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Post by Kurtz on Feb 14, 2003 14:47:09 GMT -5
I was 3 years old in the Gulf war and i don't remeber any of it...but my parents tell me it was scary as hell and i wore one of those baby gasmasks..i'm pretty sure Iraq is gonna launch scuds at israel again i'm not really afraid of it cause i have an american citzenship and i got a ticket to N.Y for whenever i want to leave..and the scuds capbilties are shit ..the only thing i'm afraid of is a picture of me and my family sitting in the living-room wearing creepy useless gasmasks waiting for a scud to land on our house ..Fuck it i aint wearing a gasmask and i aint sitting doen in the bathroom Freaky ass alarms can't wait..
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Post by MercurySolo on Feb 15, 2003 13:32:05 GMT -5
Damn Kurtz... that sucks... suddenly, America doesn't seem as bad as the propaganda's scaring us to believe... does that make sense?
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